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Episode 178 - The Creative Life with Rivki Silver

Updated: Mar 25



Creativity needs structure. That's true in art and it's true in life. If there are no boundaries to the canvas, there's nowhere to paint. The rules and "no's" of our life give us the space to play, troubleshoot, and get creative.

NO CAN BE AWESOME.


What no would be so awesome for you right now?


One of my favorite things about having a podcast is getting to have conversations with people who I am interested in and respect. This week I have the lovely Rivki Silver (as seen in Family First magazine and the DMC podcast) and we started with creativity but...

Well, it went places.


We shared about our challenges as wives and mothers, creative people, non-creative people, dealing with overwhelm and routine.

I loved it. I hope you will, too.



WHAT YOU WILL DISCOVER IN THIS EPISODE:

  1. What is creativity?

  2. How creativity fits into your married life

  3. How structure supports creativity

  4. Creative thinking vs. rigid thinking


FEATURED IN THIS EPISODE:

  1. You can reach out to Rivki at rivkisilver@gmail.com

  2. To hear more from Rivki, check out her podcast Deep Meaningful Conversations

  3. Read more about Rivki below

  4. To join the How to Glow community, visit kaylalevin.com/coaching


More about Rivki:

Rivki Silver is co-host of the Deep Meaningful Conversations podcast. A regular contributor to Family First magazine,  her writing can also be found on many popular Jewish websites. An engaging public speaker, she has spoken for high schools, seminaries and Project Inspire. She holds a degree in music performance and has performed internationally with orchestras, chamber ensembles and bands, and these days plays piano for events at all the Orthodox day schools in Cleveland, where she lives with her husband and children.


Ep 178 - The Creative Life with Rivki Silver

<00:00:34> So one of my very favorite things about having a podcast is you get to just reach out to people and be like, could we hang out and we'll record ? They say Yes. So I got to hang out with Rifkey Silver. I'm a big fan of hers. I love the Deep Meaningful Conversations podcast.

<00:00:49> I love everything that she writes. Um, and I love talking to her. And so we decided to talk about creativity, what creativity really means, how we think everyone's creative, whether you are traditional creative like she and I are or not, and how creativity fits into the life of. Jewish woman, especially a Jewish mom.

<00:01:12> This conversation took a lot of interesting turns. Um, RKI came very prepared. I don't know that we got to even have her notes, and I think you're gonna enjoy it. I, I really think it was a, for me, it was refreshing, it was grounding. It was just a really, really valuable conversation and I'm so excited to share it with you all.

<00:01:32> Enjoy.

<00:01:34> So Rickke, this is so fun because as you know, I'm a huge fan of your podcast, and I always pretend that I'm the third party.

<00:01:41> I'm the third wheel always like sometimes out loud as I'm listening. And this is literally just me being like, I have a podcast, therefore I have an excuse to hang out with you on Zoom. Just let's come up with any idea whatsoever and we are gonna go with it. and I, I am totally here for this. You know that I have been a fan of your podcast.

<00:02:00> I'm a huge fan of your podcast since like a long time, and we always love having you on D M C. And this is like, any excuse I have to like get to hang out with you is just, I will take it .

<00:02:10> So fun. Seriously. The best thing about having a podcast, you be like, I wanna talk to that person. And I can just call them and be like, do you wanna talk?

<00:02:16> Like, seriously, everyone should just have a podcast only for that.

<00:02:19> Yes, I think this could solve a lot of like the friendship and social problems, cuz then we would be in our schedule and we wouldn't be able to put it off. That actually circles back to one of your D M C episodes about women and the relationships and that's true.

<00:02:29> There you go. That's true. full circle here. So Ky just let's do, for anyone who doesn't know who you are, who isn't fangirling like I am, let's just do a quick, um, quick intro. Right? Who am I? Ricky Silver. I live in Cleveland, Ohio, and I have a podcast with my friend Alex Fletcher. We co-host the D M C podcast where we talk about all the things that you're thinking about.

<00:02:51> It's like, uh, it's, yeah, it's like, you know, having a coffee with friends. And then we talk and we bring on experts and guests who share their experiences and their advice and their, and you know, and lots of validation in DM saying, uh, I also write for Family First Magazine. I write features for them and other stuff too.

<00:03:07> That's really fun. . Um, and I also play piano for most of the day schools here in Cleveland. I play for like sitter plays and hummish plays and like sixth grade graduations and things like that. So, so cool. . Yeah. And then, you know, bar my, um, a wife and mother to five kids, and all, and all that. So I have basically I'll mixed in all that four full-time jobs.

<00:03:32> Yeah. I mean, well all the freelancing things really are, you know, it's freelancing, so it's, it's into all those, all that extra spare time that you've got. You got it. All that spare time when I'm not eating bon bars. I would say Ricky, it just occurred to me as you were saying that, that I think I have.

<00:03:48> through line for like what you produce in terms of like the podcast and your writing, is that I feel like, um, unlike, and I don't, I don't wanna say other writers can't do this, but something that I consistently get from your writing is, is food for thought that carries me through the rest of the week.

<00:04:04> Where a lot of writers, like, I'm just like, oh, interesting. And then by the time I'm halfway through the next article, I completely forgot what I read, you know, before feel, understand that's yours. It's. and you also with D M C, like I, I, I catch myself thinking about it and processing it and coming up with my own, like, you know, like, like, like how does that resonate with me and where would I go with that and like, where do I wanna apply that in my relationship and my kids or my, you know, Jewish life or whatever.

<00:04:30> So I think that's a, a very cool thing. So anyone who hasn't had a chance to check out R Selection absolutely be doing so. Thank you. That's like the nicest feedback. I really appreciate that. And it's honest. That's even better. . Yes, we do like honest feedback for sure. Yes. You know, anything like, you know, listen, flattery will get you a certain level, you know, but like the honest feedback, that's where it's at.

<00:04:50> that's where it's at. That's where it's at. Um, talk to me and do we wanna make this like a convo or we wanna make this more of an interview or, I guess we'll just see where it goes. Yeah, I kind of, I, yeah, I have like a, I have no, I wrote out like notes what you're, so. I put on Azel. That's an idea.

<00:05:05> sometimes. Hey, putting on Azel is like worth like a gazillion points. Are you kidding? Like the , like all the points for putting on Shadels. . Absolutely. So we're talking about creativity as a busy Jewish woman, is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Creativity and like how

<00:05:27> You know, and I think I wanna say before we even get started that I think there's some people who like immediately have, like, I think by the time you've reached busy Jewish woman age, , whatever, whatever that is, , then you've already kind of labeled yourself as a creative or a non-creative. Right. Often, which, yeah, which I have, I have a lot to say about that.

<00:05:48> Also, . So let's start there. Let's start there because I, I think that those of you who've labeled yourself, labeled yourself non-creative, let us make a pitch. I su suspect, suspect that Rifkey and I are on the same page on this one. Let us make a a small pitch before you decide you're gonna skip onto the next podcast episode

<00:06:03> Absolutely. So, I mean, creativity could be found in many ways. Traditionally. I think that the thing that we usually think, Most, when you say creativity, you think, you know, an artist or a musician or arts and crafts or you know, painting, writing, all of these, those things that are like quote unquote traditional creative output.

<00:06:23> Mm-hmm. , right? But creativity is also like, Can be found in so many different ways that we do all the time as Jewish women. I al I always say, um, you know, maybe, I don't know if all of your listeners are really at the carpool stage, but you know, if you have to organize a carpool and make an, you work with other women and schedule as an organize a carpool, you are engaging in a creative act like it is an act of creativity.

<00:06:47> um, you know, making dinner using what spec you use could be a creativity. Even thinking about how you wanna organize your house better utilizes creativity and creativity can nourish our soul in so many ways. And so, you know, even if you're not, you know, painting a picture or writing a poem, chances are you probably aren't engaging in something creative at some point in your life.

<00:07:06> And it does nourish you in a certain way. Like, I, like, I like to just encourage people to keep an eye out. If you, if, if you're, if anyone listening here is thinking like, well, I'm not creative. I just, you know, like you always say, Kayla, like, let's get a little, let's get a little curious. Right, right. And, and say like, well, where are some areas where you're just using creative thinking to think, to find a solution outside of the box or.

<00:07:31> or to just like find a different way of doing something if something's not working. Like that's also creativity. So there's like, I guess traditional creativity and then there's the creativity that can still nurture us and feed us and find a way to express our unique selves in the context of things other than arts and crafts.

<00:07:47> I used to teach second grade girls at Torah school in Atlanta. It's like just the cutest job any human being could ever have. and um, . And so I was really, really, um, conscious of the fact that this was like the age at which, uh, a lot of girls develop math phobia. Oh yes. And um, one thing that happened cuz I, my daughter, my oldest daughter was a little bit younger when I started teaching.

<00:08:10> She was, she was not in second grade yet. And, um, she was extremely creative kid. Everyone always told her how creative she was. And she started doing math one day, like some kind of math, and she's probably in preschool or something like that. And it came outta my mouth before I even thought of it. But I was like, oh, well of course you're good at math because you're so creative.

<00:08:26> And then I was like, you know, this one was like Esham gives you the words and then you're like, oh, that was, so then I took, thank you took that. Yes. I took that into my second grade class and we only talked about math from the perspective of creativity. So it was Oh, amazing. And it actually really fits in with like the way that they teach math now, which drives those of us who grew up with everything being like, no, carry the one like crazy

<00:08:49> Yeah. But the whole concept behind it was the more different ways you can teach a child to come to the, so. The more they're gonna understand how numbers work and the, the better off they'll be because one day they might forget one, and then they'll still have a lot of other ones available to them. So it was all about like, let's, like how many different ways can we solve this problem?

<00:09:07> How many different ways can we show this problem? Right. And look how creative that we're, we're being. And, and I think that, like you're saying, there's so many, like we would normally bucket while math doesn't, math, math doesn't come under the creative ones. But the truth is, if, if you notice that it's creativity, I think you also get that additional.

<00:09:24> See book out of the experience just by labeling. Yeah. Like here I am organizing my linen closet and it's either a chore or it's a creative act. And when I'm thinking of it as a creative act, now all of a sudden, like I'm a little more on board with this whole thing. I'm bringing more of myself to it, and I'm gonna get so much more satisfaction out of the final product.

<00:09:40> Absolutely. Absolutely. . All right, so how do we, other than, okay, everyone go organize linen closets, , or not, if that's not your jam, you know, , right? How do we, like, what do you think about getting it into our life or the value of it? What, tell, just tell us your notes. What do you wanna know? What do you wanna talk about?

<00:09:59> All right, so I, I was thinking about how, you know, when, when we're newly married and maybe even newly married and a new mother, you know, there's so many like big identity shifts and we have. All these talents and skills that we've brought with us from our, our single days, our, our teenage, our young, our early twenties.

<00:10:17> We have like, our identity of who we are. You know, whether that's like, I'm so creative or I'm not creative, but maybe if you're not creative, maybe you're maybe like really, um, with it, like really organized, like mm-hmm. , you know, we have the type, the type that we think we are. and then we're thrown into this new relationship and then like many new relationships all at once, and we have all of these skills and talents that we were using and that we identified with, and then they don't always translate so nicely into these new relationships.

<00:10:44> Hmm. Right. So, um, just for like a personal, like, to bring it to a personal example, , like I was always a very traditionally creative person. Um, you know, I have a degree in music performance. I have always been like, I was either gonna major in music or major in English. So like it was gonna be a creative field one way or the other.

<00:11:03> and I was always very busy with performing and all sorts of creative things. And then when I got married and I had kids bar Hashem right away, um, like it was, it was just like different, you know? Um, it didn't occur to me to stop creating like, didn't even occur to me. It was just like, wow, it just fitted in somewhere.

<00:11:22> and my husband, um, is a doctor. And so he was in medical school when he got married, and then he was in his residency like five months later, which means he was working for like 30 hours at a time, which meant basically I was still kind of single , , you know, , but with a baby , but with a baby. Not, not, not, not at first, but, um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

<00:11:41> So like, you know, I had like all these like big chunks of time where I was still, you know, doing music and doing writing and I taught a little bit and I did volunteering. Um, . And so like things didn't shift so much, but as my family grew and our needs grew and my relationship with my husband also grew, like everything was changing.

<00:12:03> And then I had this idea of like who I was, right? And then there were all these new like factors, right? And I was slow to adapt to this. My husband was, is like unfailingly supportive. He's such a supportive guy. Um, and we are. You know, we have the same goal in like, you know, our life and our children. You know, raising like healthy, well-adjusted children who Yiddish kite and everything.

<00:12:27> But like, we have very different ways of going about doing it very wildly, wildly different ways. Um, so like I found myself feeling a lot of frustration. , like who was I? I was this creative person, I was this person, you know, I was a musician and I was a writer and I was like, all these ideas. I had, I guess my manual, you know, of who I was and what I needed to do to be satisfied.

<00:12:47> And then I had all these new relationships who were, were wonderful and I was happy for them at the same time, um, you know, I was trying to squeeze like this old identity into like my new reality. , and so obviously no one's surprised except for me. It was frustrating, you know? Yeah, yeah. And I think that this is something when we are doing these big shifts and we're getting into these new relationships and we're finding out who we are as people in new contexts.

<00:13:13> it requires creativity to figure out. Mm-hmm. like, well, who are we now? You know, like, and how does mm-hmm. , how does, you know ver how's this like, it's like a, what's it called? Like, you know, RQ 2.0, like this is, I'm still me. Obviously I'm not a different person, but the, all the context is different. It requires creativity.

<00:13:30> It requires adapting. Can I ask so funny Can Yeah, please. I, I'm just also thinking, especially, I'm just coming off of a coaching call here with our community and. . One of the things that's been coming up a lot, a lot in our coaching has been just this, you know, this, this image of like who we are. The A perfect woman would be a perfect, perfect Jewish wife.

<00:13:50> Yes. Perfect mother, perfect homemaker. And, and I, I even think there's like the creative act of, there's, there's the, the fitting into the new roles and responsibilities and there's the creative act of scaling back on the things that are not our. Yes. When I was in Newlywed, it was gourmet meal every night like courses.

<00:14:14> You know, and there were a lot, lot of tears. There were a lot of tears involved and a lot of hangry people because that takes time. And I had no, no plan. I had no experience with menu planning and grocery lists and shopping, and I didn't like driving. So I would wait till my husband got home from work before we even went grocery shopping.

<00:14:33> I mean, it was so relate faster, right? I can, I could so relate. Yeah, hundred percent. But I think thinking about that is like the creative. Saying like, I literally just had this thought yesterday. I was thinking about me and my husband and how sometimes people are like, well, you guys accomplish a lot more than than other couples, right?

<00:14:49> Because you're, and then they come up with ridiculous reasons for why they think that's true, . And, and I was like, I think we're just more comfortable with a higher level of dysfunction than most people . That's it. Like, we don't look around and we're like, this is terrible. Like most of the time we're like, dishes will eventually go, you know, I, I hope.

<00:15:09> Yeah, I mean they eventually you will need to use them, so like eventually they will . Yeah. You know, cause I don't make it to the store to get the hupo, the disposables anyway, so. Ugh. I know, right? so, so like I, whatever, why am I saying that? Because I can see from that, I can see from that, that we've created this identity of like who we are as a household and who we are as a couple and one of those pieces.

<00:15:32> We're like, we do a lot of things and because we do a lot of things, we put a lot lower priority on things like, you know, certain things in the home that other people, hi, prioritize high highly, and that's not the right choice, but it's allowed us to create a life that's authentic to us. That's exciting for us.

<00:15:47> Yes, right. And exactly. It required the peace, like part of the creativity. Okay. I'm on soapbox. Then I'll get off into your turn. No, I love your, I love it. Keep going. . Okay. One of the things I always, always say, especially like when I used to Kiev, I keep talking about all my other jobs, . I'm like, I like, I'm like a really long, like I'm 95 years old.

<00:16:06> um, is this idea of structuring creativity, right? Because I, I had a drama degree. I wasn't, my parents were actors. I was an actor my whole life. Oh, I didn't know. That's so fun. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how I met my husband at nyu. So always a creative type, right? And so then what do you do with all of these?

<00:16:25> People would say to me like, well, you're an an artistic creative type. Like how about all this that you took on? Like it's so dry, there's so much restriction. And I was like, I don't understand. Like, there was one time I was at a training program and we were like getting lunch and someone was like, oh my gosh, are you guys here with the actors?

<00:16:40> And said, yeah. They're like, oh, that means you're like, they're really good actors. And we're like, I don't know, like, well, show me. Like with my lunch tray. Like, what? You're not giving me any structure. There's no stage, there's no script, there's no character, there's no direction. You can't be creative without the restriction.

<00:16:58> Right? And so yes, in creating who you are as a family, who you are as a couple, who you are as a woman, you, the restriction is what creates you. Yes. The deciding, I am not the person who's gonna be competing with Martha. For the table scape contest this year. Nice. That is what allows me to then be the person who is doing X, Y, and.

<00:17:19> Right, exactly. And the person who chooses to invest a lot into table skipping or whatever is not, is not involved in like the side projects. Right. Or the not not side projects. They're never side projects and like not involved in all of the amazing projects. Cuz that for her is like, what gives her seat book, you know, it's like, it's, it's so, it's so personal.

<00:17:38> It's so varied and I love how you put it of like the, it's the restrictions that give us the freedom. To, to move around and do creativity. Um, to do creativity. You know what I mean? When is what I mean? I hope the, um, hashtag tag do creativity , that's the episode. You, you heard it here first. . The, um, no, I was, this is what I was thinking about is like, you know, um, when I was reflecting on this topic is that things are always evolving and the, the boundaries are always changing, right?

<00:18:07> Mm-hmm. , like when you are a newly married and, and a young mother, like, you know, . I think about that time in my life, I had so much like big blocks of time when I was really able to do creativity, but like no sleep, you know? Mm-hmm. and like many little people who physically needed me, but my schedule was much more open in a way that I completely didn't realize cuz how would I realize?

<00:18:29> Cause I had nothing to compare it to, right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm . And then as my children got older, like now I'm at a phase where my kids are all outta the house for like the whole day. Um, but my schedule it, which sounds like, oh my gosh, freedom, freedom. But because of all my obligations and my kids are older and like I'm in the car so So now it's, it's just the time is different. Like my kids are physically less needy, but now, like my schedule is very different and they have to be much more regimented with my acts of creativity.

<00:18:58> But it's, but I get more sleep now, um, I'm just, I'm also reflecting on something that you had said earlier, Kayla, on um, yeah. About how people will look, look at you and your husband and be like, you guys are just, you guys are superhuman. You're doing more than regular humans. Like you're the most amazing humans, which I wanna say you are amazing humans.

<00:19:15> I'm not. Well, thank you. That's just, that isn't, you guys are doing amazing work and I, and I, I'm always excited to see what you're doing, but at the same time, it reminds me of like, just the importance of not comparing. We talk about this all the time. Mm-hmm. , you know, in marriage and parenthood in life, like, not comparing, I remember.

<00:19:32> and it's so easy, especially now, everything is online and everyone's posting all of their successes. Like so challenging sometimes. I remember once when I was, um, earlier on in my marriage, I, I was not feeling very like creatively fulfilled. I was still trying to like squeeze my idea of what my creativity had to be into like the box of my family life.

<00:19:51> And it didn't, it didn't work. Like I was, I was trying to make something work that really couldn't work. Um, cause I had my ideas of how I needed to be creative and. to be fulfilled. And they didn't really, they just didn't, it didn't work well, you know, um, with my husband's schedule, with my husband's, you know, he's, like I said, he's super supportive.

<00:20:10> He's also a human being, you know? Right. With his own preferences and limitations and, and skills And like I was trying to make, I was . I would like give him, I'd be like, I'm doing this thing, like, can you take care of the kids? Or whatever for bedtime or whatever. Um, like for a long time I taught piano lessons and.

<00:20:28> you know, piano lessons happen after school and into bedtime. Right. So you can imagine, you know, and, and so I would ask my husband to help out and we, I kept scaling back and eventually it was just like one night a week. But, um, you know, he would do bedtime his way cuz why wouldn't he? Mm-hmm. . But I wanted him to do it my way.

<00:20:45> Mm-hmm. because that was the right way. who can relate to this . And so it was, I was like constantly frustrated. I was like, but they're asleep. Like, you know, so much later. Or like, whatever the complaint was, it doesn't matter. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , you know, and it was causing like, like I was trying to be creative.

<00:21:00> I was trying to fulfill my use, my abilities and, and um, it was just creating cha bias problems. Right. Um, and I would look at people online, like let let this be a cautionary tale. I would look at people online and I, you know, through, I would see someone who was like always traveling and doing these like very glamorous looking things, and I was so jealous.

<00:21:20> I was like, why did they get to do it? And I don't, like, what am I complaining about? I'm stuck with my beautiful family in my house, you know? Mm-hmm. like, really? But it was so hard. It was so hard, and. me such a favor because I found out that this person that I was like so jealous of this person actually was able to travel and do all this stuff because they were divorced and when they didn't have custody, they could travel.

<00:21:43> Right. And I was like, oh, that's the whole picture, right? Right. We don't know what the trade off is. Yeah. And I'm not saying there's always like a big trade off and it's all, you know, but we don't know. We don't know what sacrifices are being made. We don't know what extra support might be happening. Yeah, we don't know the whole picture and all the comparison does is just, you know, usually I would say vast majority of the time, it just makes us miserable and it makes.

<00:22:09> Not look at our own blessings and it makes us look at our spouse maybe in a why can't aren't my spouse? Do what that spouse does. Yeah. You know, . Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I said, it's so funny cuz I've had, I've had conversations with, you know, more, more on the newly married side, women, especially on social media, and they'll just be like,

<00:22:26> I know intellectually they'll say in the same breath. I know intellectually that it doesn't mean that they're happy, but why can't we be happy like all the other couples on Instagram, . Yes. You just need to integrate that knowledge. Right. But I, I'll say it's really hard. We just did my, my oldest just had her but mitzvah and we thank you and we put together a little video for her, you know, the little slideshow.

<00:22:47> And so I was going back through all our picture. and it was rough, and I realized, I was like, I'm looking at my own highlight. Right? Yes. Yes. It was like my own Instagram. It wasn't from Instagram. These were pictures from Google Photos. But I mean, right. That's what, that's what family albums are. That's what family photo albums are.

<00:23:06> They are the highlight reels. Yes. And I was, now that I live in Israel, I was like, oh my gosh, everything was beautiful and amazing and America , my husband was like, do you remember like what our life was actually like? You know, and like he, I had to like, really, and because I had to sit there with this project, I, I kept having to go back to the picture and then I had to like talk myself back out of it of like, that's not really all my life was, but, so it doesn't even have to be someone else's life that you're comparing to.

<00:23:33> Can we even be like your own from a different phase? A hundred percent. It's like funny, it's like when I look back at my, when my children were little and I had like, all this time I was like making like videos and I was like spending all this time on my blog, like large, large, large chunks of time. I like college to have those, like that much chunk of time and I, and I look back, I do, I look back at it rose colored glasses.

<00:23:53> I was like, Ugh, if only young Rki had appreciated it. What I. I was drowning, you know? Mm-hmm. , it was so hard, and my husband was working such long hours, and I was living in a place where I had no support by myself, you know? Like it was, it was legit hard, and I'm doing the thing that I always, you know, the things we promised to ourselves.

<00:24:13> Well, when I'm at the next stage, I will never be that woman. I am like, but it's, it's true. We like have like revisionist memories. I don't know, it's probably. Subconscious self-protective measure. Really? , you know, , it's like the hormones that forget make you forget about birthing, pain. Birth. Yes. . We were right there together.

<00:24:33> Same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Wait, so what were we saying about carpal? I spend a lot more time in the car now because Barra Khe, I have kids who have activities and mm-hmm. and you know, this, that and the other.

<00:24:45> And I have carpool for my kids who need to be picked up from school. I just, my time is structured so differently now, so I've had to be a lot more, much more intentional about my creativity. I've had to be, it's funny cuz it seems counterintuitive. I have to like, schedule my creativity. I'm like, now I'm gonna do this and now I'm gonna write, you know, I, I don't have the luxury of waiting for inspiration to strike.

<00:25:02> Um, not when there's deadlines. So you have to, I have to really focus and I was just thinking about how it's so different, but it's, it's still good. It's just different. And that's something that I feel like it's such. I don't know. It's like a, it's, I know, and I know that many things are not gonna change as my kids continue to get older and as they best such get married and have their own kids.

<00:25:21> Like, there's so many stages in life and I feel like I always had this idea like, oh, and then you become an a adult and then it's adulthood. But adulthood is like, you know, or like, or then I get married and then I'm married or then I have kids and then I am a mother. But like, there's so. Like so many different stages that I never even realized were stages and I never realized how things would be constantly evolving and shifting.

<00:25:44> And it really does, like, it really does require like open-mindedness and creativity to be able to say, oh, now everything has changed. How am I gonna make it work now? You know, the things that are constant and the things that are my values. So how am I gonna, how am I gonna make it work now? And I, it helps to not let live in the land of wishful thinking,

<00:26:02> Mm-hmm. , you know, like, to be honest with myself about, I only have x amount of time now and I actually wanna get some sleep. and working till two in the morning is not really an option. So how am I gonna make it happen? And to look at my into, what is it? It's the, what's the scheduling calendar? Yeah, exactly.

<00:26:19> Yeah. You know, like what can I actually physically do now? Now what do I wish I could do? What could I do if only my husband could do dishes or whatever it is that we wish jbs for sure gonna take a two and a half hour nap. Exactly. I'd be sleep trained at six weeks. Right. None of my babies ever. It was so funny, like with every baby, my dad would be like, you know, once they reached a certain weight, then they sleep through the night.

<00:26:43> I was like, I don't know what babies you're talking about dad. Cuz it is, I had five kids, my 14, my year old . Yeah. Now and then now I have to get them up. That's the problem. Now it's not getting them to sleep, to wake up . See, like I said, things are always changing, Gabby on your toes. Things are always changing and I wanna just say that what's okay.

<00:27:03> Normal might be a sensitive word for some people, but , indeed. . What is very common is to not realize that the time has come for that creative reevaluation until you have already spent a couple weeks banging your head against the wall, frustrated with everyone in your life, frustrated with yourself, hitting yourself, hitting your husband.

<00:27:20> It's, that's part of like, yes, and hopefully we just move it up gradually so that we spend less time in that phase. But what do we do is we try the same. . It takes a little while for us to catch on that. Like the same thing isn't working anymore, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, we have this dramatically because my oldest was almost five years old when the baby was born.

<00:27:40> Oh. I had all the kids in school. I had no stroller and no diapers, , and I'm old now. It's all different ballgame. Right. But I also never had a baby with kids who could actually take care of the baby for, yeah. 20 minutes and let me lie down like it's, isn't it amazing? Totally different. It's totally. So, you know, that's, I guess that was a more obvious reevaluation.

<00:28:03> Although even in a situation like that where, you know, okay, things are gonna be really different, you don't know exactly what's gonna be different. Right? Right. Or you might latch onto a solution too quickly and then the solution's not working and you do the banging your head against the wall for a little while before you realize like, okay, back to creativity.

<00:28:18> Exactly, because sometimes it takes a while for a solution to work and sometimes you do. Like, it's not always clear to, um, whether you should keep trying and just wait a little longer or if it's time to reevaluate. And I feel like that's. , you know, if we can just understand that that is part of the process, it can relieve so much of the frustration.

<00:28:36> It's not, listen, it's not fun when you're trying to find a solution. It's not, I'm not saying it's like, yay, now it's like party time where we're enjoying it. You know, the creative process is, is not always enjoyable, but sometimes just having that flexibility that like this solution isn't the solution.

<00:28:50> Capital T. Capital S. Yep. It's something we're trying and maybe it'll work and, and maybe it'll, it won't, you know? Yeah. And we'll try it and we'll try it. and if we try it a little longer then was helpful. Okay. So we're human . Mm-hmm. . Right. You know? Right. It's like we're all looking for that perfect system.

<00:29:07> Oh, nice. You know, it's the time management or the menu plan or the chores or the whatever, like what's the perfect system that's gonna work and like what if the system is just that you try a system for a while and then not working, you try a new system like that is the system . Exactly. System is system of the day.

<00:29:21> Like whatever you need to be doing. Nothing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. and to not be, and like I feel like part of creativity is like embracing the unknown, you know, like staring at that blank word document, like waiting for words to come onto it, to send the editor. You know, it's like I can, you know, there's that fear of like, what if nothing comes?

<00:29:42> Like, what if I, what if it's bad this time? You know, like, what if I don't know what to do? You know? And. , you know, obviously when it, when it's something like, you know, work related, like, you know, you know, writing a, writing an article or, or playing music for something, you know, the, the stakes are, are lower.

<00:30:03> You know, when it's our husband, when it's our children, obviously the stakes feel much higher and then that, that can really shut down the ability to think creatively, creatively, because when the stakes are so high, you gotta get it right cuz it's gonna be, you know, disaster if you don't. Can really, I feel like sometimes it could be the opposite, right?

<00:30:21> Where it's like, oh yeah, tell me how. Like, okay, like my kids won't really get to bed on time, but I don't know, my boss is waiting for me and I can't, you know, like that. Oh, I hear that. Kind of like extra, that external pressure, like we can take our families kind of for granted, like it'll work out. I I, sounds like your values are more in line.

<00:30:40> Oh, no, please don't worry. I It's all thing That's very generous of you to say. I, I'm not saying that this is the, the right way, but I feel like for a lot of us, it's like those, those people who don't know us as well are kind of the ones where we we're trying to like prove ourselves, you know? And then, yeah.

<00:30:56> And then with, yeah, no, I think that's definitely, that definitely is also true. I think that, for me, I was thinking more along the lines of like, like I had some kids who were like really having like some behavioral challenges and like I really latched onto this idea that like the, the, the sleep on time thing.

<00:31:10> Reminded me of this, like I really latched onto the idea, like if they got more sleep, then it would help them more with like the, you know, whatever emotional regulation or whatever it was that they were struggling with. Because we know that sleep does matter. We also know that it's impossible to put kids to sleep.

<00:31:22> So I was like, what are you gonna do? Um, and so I really like latched on to like, if I just do this right, I guess it's like the systems, if I just do this one thing right, then my problem's gonna go away. Mm-hmm. , you know? Mm-hmm. . So it was us. That's what I was thinking of with, with that, you know, or just like how they're always like, , you know, your shallen bias is gonna like, determine everything in your life with your children.

<00:31:43> Mm-hmm. and everything everywhere in the history of time. And so that puts a lot of pressure, especially if you're a profe, perfectionistic type like me, everyone. Um, is every Jewish, this is not right. This is, it's probably not where we were planning on going, but I feel like it's so like serendipitous and needs to be discussed because I, I feel.

<00:32:03> maybe the, I mean, it won't be surprising that I'm saying this, but I feel like the most important place for us to be creative is in our own thinking. Yes. And so often, like what you're describing is we get rigid with our thoughts. So whether it's the manual, which is like, you know, we teach that, that's kind of like your rule book for how a husband should be, or how a wife should be, or how a mother's supposed to behave.

<00:32:24> Or if it's, you know, the way the house is supposed to be run or how your career is supposed to look. Yes. Right. Like I. so many women were, they, they, they couldn't reconcile. It was so hard to reconcile that they had children and they didn't have the same career goals that they had before. Yeah. Like they, yeah.

<00:32:48> Just were totally on that path and all of a sudden wonk, like something just totally shifted for them. and I, I feel like if we can embrace creativity in terms of our thinking, in terms of just being open to multiple ways to reach a destination, like one that I talk about a lot cause it comes up so often is husbands not fulfilling our expectations in terms of their observance of yiddishkeite.

<00:33:12> Whether that's, oh yes. The way that they entertain the. . I'm not talking about anything like really problematic, but like they, they go to movies and you think the movies are not okay. Or if that's, he's supposed to be at Night Seder and he's not going to Night Seder, he's late for, you know, whatever. He's not making it to minion.

<00:33:29> He's not making it to the right minion. He's not making it first to minion. Like, there's so many, it's like endless. It's endless. Really. Yeah. Right. And, and that rigidity gets us latched onto it has to look like this as opposed to. , why do I care about this in the first place? Right? Yeah. The point here is we're trying to build a certain kind of home.

<00:33:53> We're trying to be, I wanna be an Evan Hashem, I want Hashem to be in my life, and I know that this is a tool that's available to me. But if you're not the one that has to wake up to the alarm clock and go to chakras, then like, it's not really your tool to use. It's his tool to use. Right. And so just like being able to kind of find those places, and I think we all have them and even.

<00:34:16> I think reg, like rigid thinking almost has like a physiological compo. Like we can feel Oh, for sure. The rigidity in our bodies when we're there, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And like, yeah, then to sort of use that as like, whoa, okay, what am I latched onto here? And can I just gently unhook from like, some of the parameters that I've decided it has to be, you know, it has to look like, right.

<00:34:37> And I think that, you know, we, these parameters, like there's so much information that we, that we receive from. , all sorts of good places, you know, parenting courses or whatever magazine articles about, um, well, I guess it can, we can debate whether, whatever , but, um, you know, we latch onto these concepts and, and they become, they become MS for us, you know, and then, and it really does.

<00:35:05> When something is ms then it's hard not to be rigid, you know? And I feel like. And one of the things that I've gained so much just from, you know, from listening to your podcast and, and being in your exceptional course, you know, um, that course, I don't know, group, I don't know what to call Kayla. I know we keep community, community, community how to In How to go.

<00:35:25> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, just being involved in How to Glow has been so instrumental in. Really getting creative on that tea line, you know? Mm-hmm. really getting creative with my thoughts and I've noticed such, it's so funny cause like I'm such a creative person, but I was also so rigid in these, in these areas, in the areas that I like to say really actually matter the most.

<00:35:47> You know, all my close relationships, you know, it was, I had real ideas of what was important and of course I was right. You know, and of course everyone else was wrong. I sound like a monster, but like really whatever. . No, that like. You're just self-aware. Every, anyone who doesn't identify is lying to themselves, as far as I'm concerned,

<00:36:10> So, yes, I really had a hard time being creative in those areas, and I'm just so grateful. Like, just like, you know, from like listening to coaching or aqs or like any of the women who are, you know, are vulnerable enough to like to share what their, you know, their own things that whatever organ's coming up with them in their life, like it's.

<00:36:27> Creates such an openness to be creative about thinking of a relationships in a creative way. Mm-hmm. , and it's just, it's been really, I'm trying to think of the right word. It's like always ironic. It's like always a little like embarrassing when you're a writer and you can't think of the word, but, so I wanted to say it's normal.

<00:36:43> Don't worry me, we all do it. , um, , it's been very transformative in a really positive way and so I'm really grateful for, thank you for saying that. I didn't know you were gonna talk about the program on here. I didn't either. It's not on my, it's not on my notes. It just came out. It's not on your notes.

<00:36:57> Serendipitous, . Amazing. So, like I said, I, I wrote out notes because it's funny cuz you, if you were in drama, but I was a classical musician, classical music is like the least flexible of all of the arts. It's like the most like type A anal , like these are the notes written by someone in 1786. You'll play them Exactly I as they were written or you're wrong,

<00:37:21> Right,

<00:37:25> right. That's a very specific type of creative personality. Yes, indeed. Like the most type A possible. Um, which, you know, I still am. That's okay. I've embraced it. Um, . Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, and that's also sometimes like, you can think like, well, you're a creative person, so you have to be all over the place.

<00:37:41> But that's not also true. It's a, that's also like all these things that we tell ourselves, all of our manuals that we have about what's true and what's not. There's one, there's one more thing I, I, I wanted to say. If I can say it can say Good. I was gonna ask you. Yeah. Okay. Um, I was just thinking about how, when we're thinking about all of the gifts we have, you know, as we.

<00:38:01> navigating new relationships, you know, marriage, motherhood, whatever, whatever new relationship we find ourselves in. Like you said, like, you know, for someone who has on a specific career trajectory, and then her circumstances change and she finds like, oh, but the, those things that were so important to me for so many years are less important now, and I don't know what to do with that information, you know?

<00:38:19> Mm-hmm. , um, like I know that I was always. always saying yes to any creative opportunity that came my way. Cause I was so afraid that I would never get another chance to be creative. You know, traditionally creative. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . I, I was afraid that this was it. If I didn't say yes, then it would just be diapers and laundry for the rest of my life.

<00:38:39> Forever. Oh my gosh. And ever. That's a heavy thought. Yeah. Well, welcome to, I'm super intense . I always do things a hundred percent, hundred, 10%, hundred million percent. I'm laid back too. Whatever. I'm, I'm many things. So I would say yes to everything. And then what, what do you think would happen?

<00:38:55> I'd be over extended. I wouldn't show up for my family like you were saying earlier, like, you know, like I would be, I would be fulfilling my obligations to all of the people outside my home and then inside my home. It was like I was falling apart because I was trying so hard, so desperately to cling onto this idea of who I was as a creative person.

<00:39:11> Mm. , you know, this was my idea of what I needed to do to be creative. Cause I knew Hashem gave me these co-hosts, like, and I, and I heard from my, my teachers at Neve who they said like, you know, you were a musician before. You were from, like, you have to use it now. Like, I, it was like a mandate, you know, like that I couldn't, that I shouldn't leave behind all of the skills that I developed before I was from, like, I should use them in my, from life.

<00:39:32> And I took it very seriously. So I said yes to everyth. , but like, and it took me a long time to realize it was really not working for my family. It was really not working. You know, like I said, my husband has always been so support, I was just thanking him before I came on here. I was like, thank you for always being so supportive.

<00:39:47> Like every, all of my, who knows what I was into, like, he was very supportive, you know? But I realized I was saying yes to all these things. I was saying no to my family because I had this idea of like what I needed to do to be a creative person. And I had this realization . , you know, Hashem like, put it in my mind that, you know, Hashem gave me my creativities Hashem will also give me the opportunities to use them at the right time.

<00:40:11> Mm-hmm. , you know. Yeah. And I, I , I recognize that really Hashem is in charge. I have to, I need a constant reminder of this. Like, Hashem was really in charge. Yeah. And I just, I had to shift my priorities a little bit and I started saying no to things, which was terrifying. Terrify. . You know, if I say no, they'll never ask me again, you know?

<00:40:37> But I did start saying no. And guess what? Hashem sent me better things, really, like actually better things that worked better for my family. They weren't what I was anticipating. Mm-hmm. , you know, I'm not doing, I'm not doing very much with music at all. That's where I thought that I would be using my creative abilities was music.

<00:40:56> But like, that's not what Hashem sent me. And it's not what works for my family. Writing actually works very well for my family because I can do it at Whate. Like I can do it in between all the things. Like music, you have a thing, it's at a time. You gotta go there, there's rehearsals, it's out of the house.

<00:41:08> Right, right. You know, and I just had to be creative, I guess, in being open to the idea that how I thought I would be using my creative abilities was completely different than how like it, that it was different than how I was imagining it. Mm-hmm. . and Hashem sent me something that I find tremendously satisfying.

<00:41:26> I feel like I'm using my abilities and I'm, I don't feel like I'm shortchanging my family in the process. You know? I'm so glad you're sharing this because I think it's so easy we see the external, I mean, I know this is cliche at this point to say it, but because you just share this, like we see the external accomplishments.

<00:41:45> we don't get those stories of someone saying, no. I said no, because my family needed more. Because you're not gonna now go around and parade the fact that like, Hey, look at me. Here's the extra hour I'm with my kid. You know? Like, no, no one can see it, but we need to know what's happening. Like, or maybe we don't.

<00:41:59> But for me it helps. For me, it helps to hear, yes, there are other women out there prioritizing it and taking pride in that. And, and you should be proud of that. Like, that's a huge thing. And, and I think, you know, I, I want some, like, you know, mom. Super traditional, like Jewish mom podcaster to like just come out and be like, here's the value.

<00:42:22> Like, you know, like I, I guess it's really just a sheer, like, , but we try to be like so accommodating to like, you know, also the lady who's working full-time and also the lady who's the entrepreneur and also this, that like, it's al it's almost like we're scared to just like really emphasize that the value of a woman being fully all in.

<00:42:38> you know, and, and having big dreams on her home and the home she's creating and, and what she wants that to look like. So, yeah. And, and I think that that's something that it's, I don't know, it's something I didn't think, like, you know, first of all I was like, I was struggling. Like, it took me like 10 years to get to this point at least.

<00:42:53> So like, just if anyone's like, wow, , like it was a long, long process. A long process, yeah. With many, many mistakes along the way. Yeah. and I think that it didn't even occur to me for a long time. I'm like a little embarrassed to say this, I guess, but it didn't even occur to me to like, imagine, like to spend time thinking about what I actually wanted my house to be.

<00:43:11> What do I want Mus Chabas to look like? Like what do I want it to look like? Mm-hmm. You know, because it's, listen, it's more exciting, more externally, um, rewarding. You know, you get more external feedback when you're writing articles, when you're doing things. Mm-hmm. that your name's on the flyer or whatever.

<00:43:26> Mm-hmm. , you get a lot of external validation from that, like, um, , you know, like putting intentionality into how you wanna spend melaka with your kids or whatever. Like no one sees that, but you and Hashem and your family, you know, you could put it on Instagram if you wanted to, I guess. But you know, like really ultimately, you know, Like these things that are more internally focused and we live in such an externally focused world with such like external markers of success.

<00:43:50> We just had Jackie Glazer on the podcast, and one of the things that I loved about her was that she, she said that like her internal successes to her were the MO more important than any of her external successes. Mm-hmm. And I found that so profound because. having the degrees or having the, you know, professional success or having whatever external marker of success that we are aiming for.

<00:44:15> Like, really it's how we show up with our family. I, I don't know, like, whatever, I don't, I'm on my soapbox now, you know, but like, and I feel like I came late to this, you know, if anyone can come to it earlier, at an earlier stage, like, do it, and I feel like it's, you know, it's less glamorous and you get. , you know, immediate feedback about it, but I feel like the, the payoff is like, so, so, so worth it.

<00:44:39> Mm-hmm. . Okay. Soapbox. I'm off the soapbox. I love it. ? No, I think it's, I think it's great. . Look, we figure these things out and that's, again, that's the like creation, I think, right? Creative, right. Last year. Last year, I was like always running. I was always outta the house. I was like speaking here, speaking there, and it was like at one point I was putting my kid to.

<00:45:00> and I had to go, I had to do something. I forget what, no. I was going away for Chavez and, and my, and my eight yearold was like, Ugh, not another interview. And I was like, oh, Hmm, oh hmm. Right. You know? Yeah. And it's that balancing act, right? And like, we can go too far into the guilt side, and then we can go too far into the not caring, like, you know, like Yeah.

<00:45:26> And, and we have to w we have to watch for both. . Yeah, because I think sometimes like we're so scared of giving ourselves the guilt trip that we're not listening to that voice that's like, I need something to change here. Yeah. So it's just like that. Exactly. Yeah. Being honest with ourselves. Right. Which is easier than, than done, but worth the work.

<00:45:47> Yeah. Yeah. This is awesome. Oh my gosh. Not at all that we thought was gonna happen, but I love it

<00:46:00> So rki, people wanna, we should always say this, right? If people wanna to see your work connect with you, where do they find you? So I am mostly on Instagram, um, rki silver. So I respond to dms. So, hey, I love, I love, you know, connecting with people. Um, our podcast D M C podcast. It's deep meaningful conversations.

<00:46:23> Um, you can find it anywhere you get your podcasts. Um, and I also run the DMC dot podcast Instagram account, so I am, I'm also over there. You can talk to me on either account and, um, you know, my stuff is in Family First Magazine, which is also, you can find that on mishak mishak.com online. It's also available.

<00:46:42> I think. I think that's like, I think that's a, that's and go to sitter play places. I mean, I'm also on Facebook, but I'm never on Facebook. Would you say go sit. Go to a sitter, play . Exactly. You're the piano. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks, Kayla. It was such a pleasure.

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