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Episode 180 - Gender in Judaism with Miriam Kosman

Updated: Mar 25



In this exciting episode of the How to Glow podcast, Kayla Levin interviews Miriam Kosman, an author, lecturer, and doctoral candidate at Bar Ilan University, who is known for her groundbreaking work on gender and its role in Judaism.


Miriam's book, Circle Arrow Spiral, has been hailed as one of the most significant modern works on the subject, and Kayla and Miriam delve deep into the philosophy and concepts that Miriam has developed, exploring how they can be applied to our lives in practical and meaningful ways.


They discuss the differences between masculine and feminine energy and how this impacts personal development and growth. Miriam also shares insights from her work with secular Israeli university students and her ongoing research into gender, teasing out some of the fascinating parallels between the feminine force and the ideal Jewish person.


Whether you're looking to deepen your understanding of gender and Judaism or just interested in exploring new paths to personal growth, this episode is sure to be enlightening and thought-provoking.


WHAT YOU WILL DISCOVER IN THIS EPISODE

  1. What does it mean to show up with a masculine vs. feminine energy

  2. Masculine & feminine archetypes

  3. The feminine in Western culture

  4. The hierarchy of the masculine

  5. The process vs. the result

  6. Practical implications

  7. How we approach ourselves

  8. Where does hierarchy fit in marriage

  9.  The feminine force in the modern world


FEATURED IN THIS EPISODE

  1. Learn more about Miriam below

  2. Want to take this work further? I would love to coach you inside my coaching program, How to Glow. It's a no-commitment monthly program where you can get coached every week and be part of an amazing community of women. Ready to give it a try? Join today at kaylalevin.com/coaching


About Miriam:

Miriam Kosman is an international lecturer for Nefesh Yehudi, a program that offers classes on Jewish thought and philosophy to Israeli university students.  In that capacity she teaches a few hundred students a week, who study at Tel Aviv University, Haifa University, Ben Gurion University, the Technion and others.  She also runs a year-long course on Jewish thought that has been attended by hundreds of women.  She is a doctoral candidate at Bar Ilan University; her dissertation topic touches on both Jewish philosophy and gender. She lives in Bnei Brak, Israel, with her family.


Ep 180 - Gender and Judaism with Miriam Kosman

<00:00:00> Kayla Levin: Episode 180 Gender and Judaism with Miriam Kosman.

<00:00:04>

<00:00:37> Kayla Levin: Hello my friends. So if you have been following my work at all, you know that this is a landmark, monumental super, super exciting episode for me to be publishing to you all. Miriam Kosman's book Circle Arrow Spiral, I would say is probably one of the most significant modern works on gender and its role in Judaism. And before you get concerned, if you're thinking this is now gonna become like some kind of like sort of semi political discourse or something like this, it's the opposite. And what I loved about this conversation that we're gonna be sharing with you is that you really see.

<00:01:13> Kayla Levin: The philosophy and concepts that Miriam has so beautifully and fully developed, and how this can actually be applicable to your life. That's what I'm trying to do for you during the course of this interview is bring this down into something that can affect. The decisions that we make, the focuses that we have in our lives, how we wanna show up, and what does it mean to show up in a masculine energy versus a feminine energy.

<00:01:36> Kayla Levin: This is work that I've been doing with my clients and it's really fascinating. I have yet to find anyone who doesn't find this to be a completely different way of looking at the world, and especially at looking at. Personal development and growth because it's so easy to do it from a very masculine place.

<00:01:50> Kayla Levin: And so this conversation really helps us find a completely new path into personal development. Wherever you are in your own, you know, personal growth journey, I know you're gonna really enjoy this conversation. I am so grateful for giving us the time, to share her work enjoy the.

<00:02:06> Kayla Levin: Miriam Kosman, thank you so, so much for coming onto the How to Glow podcast.

<00:02:13> Miriam Kosman: My pleasure.

<00:02:14> Kayla Levin: Miriam is the author. Well, you're a lot of things, and I'd love you to just introduce yourself a little bit too, but I just, I have to hold it up and I have to tell you, I have a hug story about this book.

<00:02:24> Kayla Levin: This is Miriam's book, circle Arrow Spiral. She wrote this book. If you have been following this podcast or if you've ever been in any of my coaching programs, you know that this is required. Reading . This is something that I, um, really, really, very strongly recommend to the women that I work with.

<00:02:40> Kayla Levin: And, and I'm just, I'm just so delighted. I'm so delighted that we were able to work this out. You know, what, a year, a year in the making.

<00:02:48> Miriam Kosman: It's been a long time. Yeah. Yeah.

<00:02:51> Kayla Levin: Could you let us know a little bit, I know you do other things than just writing. If you could share a little bit about what you do professionally and where you are for people who don't know you.

<00:03:00> Miriam Kosman: Okay. So mostly, um, I, I work in kiruv. I'm, uh, I work for an organization called NE s u d, which is similar to Olai, or actually it is a branch of, of, of Olai, but it's here in Israel and. , I teach, um, secular Israeli University students and you know, in America, so you have a small group of students or maybe a little bit bigger group of students in each university.

<00:03:26> Miriam Kosman: But here in Israel we have this interesting fact that the great majority of the people that live here are Jewish. So we have much. The whole organization is much bigger, and I work as a lecturer, so I travel every night to a different city. We have, um, you know, branches at all the major universities and a lot of the, you know, colleges.

<00:03:44> Miriam Kosman: So I would say in a week I speak to a few hundred students, secular students, about topics that have to do with Jewish thought, Jewish pH. You know how Judaism perceives the world. So that's what I do a lot of the time. I also write, I'm also a doctoral candidate at Bar Ilan, and I'm still trying to finish my doctorate, um, in philosophy, but it's on the topic of gender.

<00:04:04> Miriam Kosman: And, um, I'm working on the second book of this, um, ERO Spiral thing. Um, and I don't know that. Yeah, I'm trying. In the second book, I want to try and define, um, the feminine force to try and understand on a deeper level what the feminine force is. And actually what I'm, what the book is based on is I'm gonna show how the feminine force really parallels the ideal or the Jewish person in many, many ways.

<00:04:33> Miriam Kosman: It's almost as if the, um, the woman is sort of like the microcosm of, uh, of a bigger force. That the Torah is moving us towards. So it's very, very interesting. And I, I, I guess you asked me to tell you about myself, like, I'm a, I'm a, I am a sort of philosophical person. You know, one of the reasons I hesitated when you asked me is cuz I'm not really sure how to take all these ideas and uh, you know, I guess that's your job to translate them into real life.

<00:04:58> Miriam Kosman: I really, um, people are so complicated. I find them, I find it very difficult to put people into categories. Men are like this, women are like that. I really look at these two forces as sort of archetype. , we all have both of them. And if in a particular marriage, you know, the ratio is not exactly, you know, she's not necessarily bringing the feminine force and he's not necessarily bringing the masculine force, think it can also work very well.

<00:05:22> Miriam Kosman: So, um, I guess I'd like to stay on the philosophical level.

<00:05:26> Kayla Levin: Huh. Right. And I like to just soak up all the philosophy and figure out how we're gonna turn it into a, a project. Um, so that's amazing. I'm so excited. There's another one coming out. I literally, I think two days ago had someone saying to me, I just wish I could value the feminine more.

<00:05:43> Kayla Levin: And so now I can just tell her, well, just, the book is coming. . I told her to read this one. She hadn't read this one yet, but. . So can I quickly tell you my story with this, with this book? Sure. I'd love to hear it. Okay. We made Aliah just over three years ago and at the time your book was out of print and I checked about, you know, on a regular basis I would go on to Amazon and check, and we were living in Atlanta so they didn't have that in the bookstore and I kept going on to Amazon and checking it $430, you know, cuz Amazon will change it.

<00:06:13> Kayla Levin: Like if there's one available, like they can, you know, bring the price up and it. Automated. So it was like $400, $200. I'm like, I don't know. Should I do it? Like, should I spend hundreds of dollars? I really, really wanna read this book. You know, never got around to it. We made Aliyah, we, um, go down to the little Mer and we're buying our kids some Barres or whatever.

<00:06:34> Kayla Levin: And my husband and I are both book nerds. So we found the bookstore. We're so excited. I walk in, the first book I see on the shelf was your, Just sitting there on a bookshelf in a store. I couldn't believe it. After like, you know, over a year of trying to track this book down, I just really felt like in that moment it was like this hug from Hashem like you, I wanted you to come, I wanted you to be here cuz here's the present , here's a welcome present.

<00:06:57> Kayla Levin: So it was a nice

<00:06:59> Miriam Kosman: moment. I didn't, I actually asked me to plant it there in the bookstore for you when he heard.

The Masculine & Feminine Archetypes

<00:07:04> Kayla Levin: Thank you . Appreciate it. You took a trip to her. My beach of it. . Um, so if you wouldn't mind sort of sharing with us a little bit about, for, again, for people who aren't as familiar and also those of us who need a refresh, a little bit of the archetype of the masculine and the feminine and, and what you mean by spiral.

<00:07:23> Miriam Kosman: Mm-hmm. . Okay. So, um, actually when I was thinking about what we would talk about today, I was thinking about one of the things that. Okay. You know, let me answer that in a, in a very specific way. So the, the, the I'll, I actually have it here so I can show. So, but I see it goes opposite. I have to put my finger on the opposite side cuz it's a mirror image.

<00:07:44> Miriam Kosman: So this is the arrow and that I use, um, as a defining, as a symbol to, to explain the, the masculine force, which is the force that we all have, which is a drive for excellence, for accomplishment, for acquiring. And it's an arrow because it's like heading upwards. We wanna reach something that we're not there.

<00:08:04> Miriam Kosman: Basically the defining force of the arrow is, I'm not happy with where I am right now. . In other words, I want more, I want more of whatever it is. And this is obviously an extremely important force because without it, we'd all just sit around in whatever situation it is. I mean, it's the driving force be behind discovery.

<00:08:22> Miriam Kosman: It's a a driving force behind science. It's a driving force behind writing books, right? In other words, there's something I wanna accomplish. This force is by definition, critical. and judgmental because if it wasn't critical and judgemental, what's the point of going anywhere? If everything's fine, let's just sit right here.

<00:08:40> Miriam Kosman: And the circle force, which is like a def define, uh, is the symbol I use for the feminine force. And by the way, neither of these, not in the, none of these three symbols are, um, original and in fact, um, in Kabbalistic literature, the idea of the circle and the line force, it's not an arrow bow line force. Is found.

<00:08:59> Miriam Kosman: And interestingly also in other ancient societies. In other words, this is a masculine force. This is a female, a feminine force exists. Um, so the idea of the feminine force is I'm not interested in going anywhere. I wanna experience the here and now. I wanna totally revel in, um, in what I'm doing right now.

<00:09:19> Miriam Kosman: I'm happy with where I, with what I am. I would actually say, and I think this is something, this was somewhat of a revelation, um, to me and I think to people who read it, that the defining feature of the feminine force, the way we're describing it, right over here is pleasure. . You know, most people when they wanna be like more feminine, they would, um, or let's say a woman wants to like, you know, be better.

<00:09:39> Miriam Kosman: So she tends to like, oh, I need to do more. I have to drive more carpools. Or, you know, do more facets and more people's suppers. Uh, you know, Daven Moore, say more to hill and whatever it is. And really the defining feature of the circle, of this feminine force is the ability to literally revel in pleasure to.

<00:09:59> Miriam Kosman: Which is fascinating because, um, you see how really, um, reflects that because, you know, let's say the mitzvah of owner, the man's obligation is to give her pleasure, what's her obligation. So she doesn't have an obligation. Cause you can't command somebody have pleasure, right? That's not like a commandment.

<00:10:15> Miriam Kosman: Mm. But obviously it's, uh, you know, if his command is to give her pleasure, so her, you know, so it's understood that she has to understand how to have pleasure, she has to be willing to allow herself to have pleasure. So that's really. And

<00:10:29> Kayla Levin: this is the name of the pod. That's why the podcast is called, called what?

<00:10:32> Kayla Levin: It's called because Oh really? My husband's hop was, my job is to make you glow. And I was like, but I don't wanna make you glow. That doesn't drive me. He said, I think your job is to figure out how to glow. And that's why it's called How to Glow. Let's, that's interesting that it's tying in here.

<00:10:47> Miriam Kosman: Right? So then the spiral would be, um, and, and what I maintain in the book, and I think is, is um, is true in general.

<00:10:57> Miriam Kosman: The goal of Judaism is for us to be able to cre each one of us to create a spiral in our own life. So like, um, if each of us have a male and female force, the spiral is let's say a synthesis of these two forces. I wanna progress, I wanna achieve, I wanna accomplish, but I wanna do it in a holistic way.

<00:11:14> Miriam Kosman: I wanna take all of myself with me, wherever I go. I don't wanna become like a caricature. Caricature is somebody. Is excellent at one thing, but terrible, you know? But in every other area they're like, so I wanna grow, but I wanna grow in a holistic way. And what I maintain is that the whole halal structure is, um, is sort of, if once you look at it through the, those lens, you can sort of see that, that, you know, the mitzvahs or I would say the whole system is sort of geared towards every human being, creating that synthesis within himself between the, the male force and the female.

<00:11:48> Miriam Kosman: Neither one. You know, each one by themselves is a distortion. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . You know, if you just sit there enjoying, or if you just, if you're constantly running and producing an accomplishment in both, both those situations, you can see that it creates a distortion. There's, you know, there is that synthesis in marriage.

<00:12:08> Miriam Kosman: There's also synthesis within yourself. There's also synthesis when within Khali Israel as a whole, there's also a synthesis between the Jewish people and the non-Jews. There's also synthesis between us and Hashem. In other words, these two forces play themselves out in many and in every sphere of existence, I'll put it that way.

<00:12:26> Miriam Kosman: Mm-hmm. .

The Feminine in Western Culture

<00:12:28> Kayla Levin: And you, you talk about in the book how the eastern culture is more attuned with the circle energy and, and western culture is more of an arrow type of thing. Um, I, I work with English speaking women, and so the women that I'm working with are very, very heavily influenced by Western culture.

<00:12:48> Kayla Levin: And when you described in the beginning the, the critical, I'm not happy with where I am. I wanna keep moving, I wanna figure out the next thing. Doing a lot of things, perfecting type of energy, to me that brought up the image of a lot of women in, in my mind. Um, if, and, and as you said, we have both of us within us, but is there a, a lack of, of emphasis or, or prioritization of the feminine?

<00:13:16> Kayla Levin: Do. , do we value it if we come from a Western culture where we're really looking for that and product, that goal, that achievement in so much of our culture?

<00:13:28> Miriam Kosman: As I was thinking about what you know, what to say in a marriage kind of framework, I think that one of the things, first of all, to say this in parenthesis without explaining it a lot, but, you know, I do mention in the book that the world is moving closer to the more feminine way of looking at things.

<00:13:43> Miriam Kosman: So, you know, when I wrote the book and I said, this is Weston, this is East you. , it's a little bit superficial because there's a lot, a lot of feminine energy that's seeping into Western culture, and you can see it in so many different, um, societal trends. You know, whether it's, you know, uh, gender identity and whether it's, a sort of equalization of everything and, to be, you know, this whole idea of being against.

<00:14:07> Miriam Kosman: Accepting students because they're, they're good students. Instead, accepting everybody, you know, like this idea of equalization is definitely, there's the feminine forces becoming much more prominent in many ways in western culture. But the bottom line is that we are driven, we're driven, we're driven.

<00:14:22> Miriam Kosman: Jews are driven, and Western people are driven, and we're all driven, and we're, you know, we're all running and we're all doing and we're trying to accomplish. And, and our sense of identity is very, very much based on what we do. And, um, yeah, I can hear that. I can hear that women, need to sort of, women and men need to become more friendly with that feminine force.

<00:14:41> Miriam Kosman: But what bothers me, um, sometimes when I hear, you know, this, this male force and the female force, and I explain it in length in my book are often referred to as the Maia and the Bel, and the Maia is the influencer, and Theil is the receiver. And that's based on the biological model because he gives the seed, she receives it.

<00:15:01> Miriam Kosman: So, like you said, your husband said your job is to. Uh, know how to glow or to learn how to glow or to be comfortable glowing. His job is to make you glow. So obviously, you know, that dynamic exists and it, it's the basic dynamic of the masculine and the feminine.

<00:15:16> Miriam Kosman: But I think that, um, a lot of times it can feel forced. In other words, people sort of use the idea of mash and bel to. Steward of sneak some old-fashioned values in through the backdoor. Like sort of say, you know, you're try, you really should make your husband into this authority and you should accept his authority.

<00:15:39> Miriam Kosman: Because I want you to understand that at mash, Macondo by definition is hierarchical, right? Because you have, let's say this is the mash, right? And this is the Mac. So clearly the Maia is on top, right? And that, so then it's sort of like, let's say you. even, Laura Doyle who's sort of like a guru on this topic, so she talks about how like, you know, let him run things and let him take responsibility and use her, and I have absolutely nothing against it.

<00:16:07> Miriam Kosman: And, you know, I'm always pro some, anything that works and makes people feel good about, life, about marriage makes their marriage better, but, on a certain level, it is sort of saying, make him the boss and accept that. And again, and I'm not even saying that that's not true at all. Maybe there is that element of that.

<00:16:25> Miriam Kosman: But I think what's, what would be helpful to people is to try and understand this feminine force on a deeper level, like we mentioned before, that the arrow is critical and it has to be critical. Critical is like the definition of movement. Critical discerning. I want this, I don't want that. And the circle voice.

<00:16:46> Miriam Kosman: On the other hand, I often use the word love to describe the circle force when I am pleasuring or when I am in a mode of total acceptance. That very closely resembles love. Like when you love somebody, when you're really in love with someone. , you tend to, accept them totally without criticism and it's not a hard job, it's just the way it is, you know, the caricature of the mother, , the typical caricature of the mother who like, literally cannot hear like the, , the kindergarten teacher calls her to tell her that her kid's a problem and got, and kindergarten and the mother's like, we just don't understand.

<00:17:21> Miriam Kosman: My child is like so sensitive and deep and he understands things on such a deep. . And that's the way he's not, that's why he's knocking everybody else's, uh, Lego creations over, you know, because he's like a really deep, you know, so, you know, we laugh at her like, lady, are you blind? And, and, and the answer is yes, she is blind because she, you know, okay, that's a character.

<00:17:41> Miriam Kosman: We hope we're not that mother that we can see our child's fault. But we do tend, when we love somebody to be so uncritical that we totally accept them and. . And I feel like if we could understand the feminine force more on that level, that it's not so much who's gonna make the decision and who's, it's really just that we wanna bring the world closer to a place of love and acceptance.

<00:18:06> Miriam Kosman: And it's just fascinating that when we're around somebody, like you described, again, to this idea of glowing love really does make us glow and it makes us glow in the sense. we're not critical. , we ourselves are not critical. And we also feel that the person who is giving us that love is projecting towards a such total acceptance of us that, um, that, you know, we're, we're motivated.

<00:18:35> Miriam Kosman: It's, you know, it's very interesting that that symbiotic relat. It's not necessarily the criticism that makes us grow, that makes us change. Like when you criticize somebody, you think, here, I'm helping you to grow and just telling you what you should be doing differently. And very often that doesn't work.

<00:18:51> Miriam Kosman: And on the other hand, when you allow yourself to see the greatness in the other person and project that back to them and, um, you know, totally accept them, then the person themselves can figure out or is motivated to change what they need to change. Without your, without your. I sort of think, I feel like we don't understand it, like the, the feminine force is appealing because it's, um, it's appealing to everyone, men, everybody knows every, you know, everybody knows that the place where the real work is.

<00:19:22> Miriam Kosman: Is the feminine force is this ability to accept, to love, to see the good in the other person, to, you know, to really, and Hebrew, there's the word which it means I guess to accept, but it really means like sort of to like make yourself into a vessel big enough to receive what the other person really is without judgment.

<00:19:42> Miriam Kosman: And um, you know, when your friend, when that person said to you like, I wish I more identified with the feminine force. , I'm sure she does identify with it on a deep level. She just sort of associates it with, in some way being like a yes man or all smiley and sweet with no ideas of her own, and that's not what it's really talking about.

<00:20:01> Kayla Levin: Right, right. That's very interesting because when, you know, I, I, the way that you described it was so beautiful because my experience, listening to you talk about it, I had all these people pop up in my mind, right. Like I was able. Remember these different moments throughout my life where I had that feeling of someone seeing me for who I couldn't even imagine myself being yet, being yet.

<00:20:27> Kayla Levin: Um, and, and how that absolutely, it, it almost gives you permission to grow where the critical can sort of have you dig in your heels. Like, I'm right for being the way that I am. Don't you tell me I should change, like I have justification. , and so I think that that's, that's really, really beautiful. It also made me think a lot as you were speaking about the difference between the week and Chavis, right?

<00:20:50> Kayla Levin: That we're during Chavez. This is like, as you said, the the real work happens in the feminine, right? In that time when we're not so busy with getting everything done and making everything better and improving our lives, there's nothing to do. There's nothing you can change. , that's when our relationships go up to the next level.

<00:21:07> Kayla Levin: That's when we're able to really connect with the people around the table with us, the people in our hopefully , the people in our lives.

The Hierarchy of the Masculine

<00:21:14> Miriam Kosman: Right. Very, very much so. And, and there's another aspect that I, I wanna just point out. Cause I think it's really, it's fascinating, especially like at this time of year that the, um, the arrow.

<00:21:28> Miriam Kosman: Is a hierarchical voice. In other words, it's, it's the whole foundation of the, that male voice is hierarchy because you can't, um, go any, you can't plan to get here unless there's a here. In other words, by definition, there's a, a beloved above and below, and there's an intrinsic, um, competition in this force because,

<00:21:50> Miriam Kosman: Um, obviously if I wanna get here, if you already got here, then I'm not here anymore, then I have to go here. So there's mm-hmm. your success. Mm-hmm. , anyone else's success is sort of my, um, my, uh, my failure. I don't want anybody else to succeed. So like, if I'm an arrow mode, I might want my, my team to succeed, but I don't want another person who's outside my team to succeed.

<00:22:14> Miriam Kosman: So why do I wanna mention this? Because I feel. , when you look at the women in Tanana, and I'm thinking about that this right during, you know, these parches right now, like, you know, the women that had such a, you know, they really were the ones that made this whole story happen. And they're not these like sweet little, you know, smiley, whatever you say, kind of people in the slightest bit.

<00:22:37> Miriam Kosman: They were really the ones, like , the two midwives who went to, you know, who disobeyed paro. and Miriam who went over to, , Baia and offered, you know, to to, to bring the baby to her mother and Baia herself. I mean, she, you know, she's an amazing woman. She, she was the daughter of Paro.

<00:22:55> Miriam Kosman: Could you imagine that? Like she was the daughter of Paro and she takes Mosher Aino and she brings them up under Carl's nose in the, in the palaces. I mean, it's just like such an act of total disregard for status and hierarchy. . And I feel like every one of those women, that's what they were doing. They were sort of saying, it means nothing to me who's above and who's below.

<00:23:18> Miriam Kosman: All I'm interested in is the relationship, is , the is what's the right thing to do? And that's, that is such a fascinating facet of femininity that, um, and by the way, you know, this has brought down a, a number of, uh, feminist, , philosophers. Talk about, uh, uh, the female disregard for rules, for rules and regulations.

<00:23:38> Miriam Kosman: Um, I think pij, uh, talks about how like little girls tend to ignore rules like they're playing jump. You know, or something like that. So the, the rule is if you do, if you touch the robe or whatever, you're al so they'll say no, but she's not Al cuz she's my best friend. And they're not even embarrassed to say that, you know what I mean?

<00:23:54> Miriam Kosman: Like, they don't feel like they have to pretend it really is a rule. And he says that men, he says, little boys playing are very big sticklers for rules. And you know, this, this is based on rules and regulations because. Any movement upwards, somebody has to decide what the upward is. So either it's that you have this kind of car or that you have a certain degree that you got at this university and not that university.

<00:24:15> Miriam Kosman: In other words, the rules are very important if you're in this progress because it has to be clearly delineated what's up and what's down. Whereas this voice sort of laughs at that whole thing like. who says that this kind of car is better than that kind of car. They both have four doors and a wheel and a gas pedal and a brakes.

<00:24:31> Miriam Kosman: You know what I mean? Right. , in other words, from this perspective, the point is what's going on on the inside? Like, who cares? So I think that, even if you want, if you wanna go with the Laurel Doyle kind of approach and say, let him be in charge of the finances, I think that at its depth, and I don't know, I wouldn't say Laura Doyle is dealing with lots of depth here, but let's say she is.

<00:24:51> Miriam Kosman: Right. I wouldn't say that the depth. Let him deal with the finances because, um, you know, because there is some intrinsic need for him to be higher. I think it's more like if that's good for the relationship, who honestly cares who's in charge. In other words, the question of who's running things is just not relevant to this voice, whether it's male or female.

<00:25:14> Miriam Kosman: And notice that, most of our goold. Really, many of, I wouldn't say most of ar I say many of the stories we hear about Argo Doum, what are we, what are we talking about that's so wonderful is that we can see how they literally sort of laugh at this whole idea. You know, there's that famous story, ver Bko kaki that they asked him, how did he walk down to the hookah with his children, like, you know, two mothers and two fathers, or the mother and the father, and he said three times like this and three times like that.

<00:25:40> Miriam Kosman: What did he say? Whichever way the wanted. That's what I did. , you know, now that's a circle voice, right? He was obviously not a woman, but I'm saying the circle voice that like, what's important here is the relationship. What's important here is the fact that we love each other, appreciate each other, and not that we don't notice each other's foibles or faults, but our love is bigger than that.

<00:26:02> Miriam Kosman: And you know, and it's, I think that if we could move away from trying to portray the feminine force as this. Sort of meek voice that like gives in and whatever, and sort of realize it's really a voice. It's, it's, it's like an, um, idyllic voice. It's the voice of the future, the voice of the messianic age.

<00:26:21> Miriam Kosman: It's the voice of being able to see that it's a circle. We're all part, we're all inside the circle. We all need each other. We're all important to each other, and everybody's fault is, is also their, their, um, bene, you know, they're all, it's also what they're bringing to the story. You. , it's, it's sort of a voice that like is not interested in status, not because of rebellion, but because it sees above, it sees the bigger picture.

<00:26:49> Miriam Kosman: Mm-hmm. ,

The Process vs The Result

<00:26:49> Kayla Levin: 'it's like that cosmic laughter, cosmic idea. I, I see the, the cosmic laughter idea, like I see the beginning, the middle, and the end of the story and Right. Exactly. I kinda step back from all of it. Right. Yeah. It's very, very interesting if, if a person. I'm happy that you said this also about the, um, the feminine is not just either meek or, or, or doing nothing.

<00:27:16> Kayla Levin: One of the ways that I had described this previously for myself, sort of the, what, what is this glow idea, or what is this feminine idea? And I, I said I sometimes feel like I'm a happy charging station in my home, happy when I'm in this mode. It's like people come like little bat, like, like they're recharging their batteries near me, , you know, and then they go off to play.

<00:27:34> Kayla Levin: and, and then somebody afterwards was like, but does that mean I have to just sit on my couch , you know, like for me to be doing that. And you know, like you said, it, it, it, it is still a voice. It's still a, an energy of, of growth and movement, but not, I guess what you're saying is sort of not from a place of, it's not right now, it's wrong now, it needs to be fixed or it needs to be better, but just sort of from a place of almost like seeing the whole big picture.

<00:28:00> Kayla Levin: Would that sound. .

<00:28:02> Miriam Kosman: Yeah. I mean, first of all, there was, the internet connection was not so stable for a second there, so I missed a few words, but you were, but I said, you're saying like, when, when you gave this example of the, of, of, of being like the charging station mm-hmm. , you meant sort of like people come in and charge and don't, and the, and the, the charger doesn't, doesn't do anything.

<00:28:21> Miriam Kosman: Is that what you were saying?

<00:28:23> Kayla Levin: That's what she was worried about afterwards. Like I had given that example of I was just sitting there on the couch and I noticed my. just coming and just sort of being near me and then perking up and going on with their day. It's like they wanted to be in my orbit versus like, watch out for mommy.

<00:28:37> Kayla Levin: She's gonna tell you what you didn't do right today. You know? And um, and that's what, that was her, that was her concern was, does that mean I just have to like, sit on my couch if I wanna be feminine or if I wanna be happy with my life? Am I just like sitting there like, what do you do? The to-do list.

<00:28:55> Miriam Kosman: I really think, first of all, I totally agree as a mother with that idea, you know, like on some level that is, you know, what a mother is.

<00:29:03> Miriam Kosman: Um, um, and obviously there's so much of your life. , I think what's really important is that, um, it's, it's really makes not that much difference what you're doing. It's more how you're doing it. In other words, basically any sphere of activity could be feminine. Or masculine, it doesn't really matter what it is, in other words, the, that's what we're trying to say is that the feminine is not about not doing, it's more about being focused on the goal that, on the ultimate goal, which is, you know, I mean, an example I've used many, many times, it's, let's say, a scientist, right?

<00:29:39> Miriam Kosman: So, but you know, if you have a male-oriented scientist or you know, let's say a masculine type of scientist who could be a woman or a feminine kind of scientist who could be a man, We're not talking about men and women, we're talking about two ways of being. The masculine focus on, let's see, being a scientist would be amassing more and more knowledge because the more knowledge you have is the more power you have.

<00:29:59> Miriam Kosman: Everybody know knows knowledge is power, but that's not the only statement about knowledge. You know, knowledge is also pleasure. It's one of the most pleasurable things in the world to have. and, uh, knowledge is also a way to help people, to bring people closer, et cetera. So the question would be more on what are your goals?

<00:30:18> Miriam Kosman: You know, what are you focused on? And I sort of feel like this is such a, it's just such a fundamental, I, you know, like, um, one of, uh, one of the feminist thinkers, coined the phrase, the process is the result. So what does that. That in very often in activities that have to do with, mothering or wifeing or whatever it is, you know, just, you know, things that are traditionally feminine.

<00:30:41> Miriam Kosman: So you realize that like, let's say for putting your kids to bed, So if you, if you, um, are focused on the goal, which is like, here I have kids running around the house, my goal is to have them in bed quietly, right? So, you know, however you get them from this stage to that stage is fine. You know, like if you throw them into bed, scream at them, yell at them, or whatever, you still accomplished your task.

<00:31:02> Miriam Kosman: But anybody who understands relationships, news, , the process is the result. The question is, did you get your kids into bed? It's how did you get your kids into bed? You know, did you read them a story? Did you sit next to 'em? Did you listen to what their, you know, nightmares are about? Did you stroke their little cheeks?

<00:31:17> Miriam Kosman: Did you give them a kiss? Did you make them feel loved? When they fell asleep? And you know, it might be they went to sleep later, or it took you longer. But everybody knows the process is the result. That's true, really as a, as a yid, you know, that's the job as a Jew like that we're not asked at the end of the day, what did you do?

<00:31:36> Miriam Kosman: Because a lot of things that we do and that we take pride in don't have that much to do with, you know, like, you know, it's, it's a delicate balance. But the truth of the matter is, many of us wish we could do big things. , but we don't necessarily have the ability to do those things for many reasons, cuz somebody who has more money can do more of this or that.

<00:31:54> Miriam Kosman: Somebody who has more talent in a particular area can do more of that, of this or that. So the question, I think that, you know, the, the ultimate question is less what did you do, but more what did you try to do? What, uh, how did you do it? What was your process? Right? Everybody knows that if you give a lot of tka, but you make people feel bad.

<00:32:12> Miriam Kosman: If you smile at some, you don't have money. Like we know that the smiling is worth more, right? Because it's who you are, what you are bringing to the situation more than what you actually accomplished.

Practical Implications

<00:32:21> Kayla Levin: So you had mentioned about the, the sort of finding the synthesis with the spiral. Um, you know, within the relationship within Ctra in so many different ways, I wanna just focus on within ourselves.

<00:32:35> Kayla Levin: Since we don't have you as a, a whole series here, . So if a person's listening to this and they're thinking, wow, I really spend a lot of time on one side or the other, I think, you know, I, I think a lot of women are gonna be feeling this. One of the, I I'm always in my to-do list and it's hard for me to stop, but I'm sure that there's the, the, the opposite as well.

<00:32:54> Kayla Levin: Feeling like I, you know, it's hard for me to get going on that to-do list. I'd rather just really just sit and be and enjoy. But there's things that I really should be accomplishing. I know you said you like to be in the philosophical and not practical, but I'm gonna push you on this one a little bit in case there's any wisdom that we can, we can take from this.

<00:33:10> Kayla Levin: What does that look like for a person? Meaning do we go with, uh, okay. If you're strong on one meter, then you go to the other side and practice that for a while. Do I only do to-do lists for two weeks and then see if I balance out in the middle? Or is it more about sort of intellectually valuing that spiral?

<00:33:28> Miriam Kosman: You know, like I said, I really, I, you know, if you're asking about ADO and how a person, um, you know, decides what they need to do, I mean, I think one of the fundamental must rules, which by the way is a very masculine way of looking at the world, and it's just very funny to me. Cause Okay. I, I mention, I mentioned in my.

<00:33:48> Miriam Kosman: different streams of Judaism are more masculine or feminine. I'm talking about Orthodox Judaism right now. You know, like there is the muscle approach with ju in, in many ways is masculine and you know, let's say more of the, um, , you know, Breslav taken very much this whole idea of, you know, meditation and ispo being with hashem and Joy and whatever, which is a more feminine approach.

<00:34:11> Miriam Kosman: So, but I come from a very lit er kind of background. And, um, there's no question that the message is, do what's hard for you. In other words, if you wanna know what, what you should be working on, you should be work. You know, like whatever. It does not come naturally to you and. So let me say that for a minute, then I'm gonna, I'll qualify it with a more feminine perspective.

<00:34:33> Miriam Kosman: But the, you know, that, that divorce basically says, you know, if you find yourself, you know, you have a hard time dominating, which is feminine. Why do we have a hard timeing? And I, I just find it, you know, like, it's just unbelievable. Like, Say sometimes I have to Dave, I'm almost willing to do anything like clean the refrigerator, rather.

<00:34:52> Miriam Kosman: Oh, I must clean the refrigerator. Oh, whoops. Right. I mean, like, honestly, was it easier to clean the refrigerator than it would be to Dave Mink? And in a certain way, yes, because davening mink is stopping cleaning the refrigerator. I'm still in control. I'm running, I'm doing, I'm accomplishing. And when you stop to , if you do it the right way, you're.

<00:35:12> Miriam Kosman: Completely and totally moving. Like you said before about Chavis, I'm moving into a state where I'm not doing, and it's really honestly all about relationship. Just me and Ashem. I have to stop and look at myself, right? And for somebody who's a Arrowy kind of person, if that's what's hard for you, clearly that's for yours.

<00:35:31> Miriam Kosman: Clearly. That's where you're, you know, and then there are people who, like you said, and I don't think there is much of an anomaly. You know, I think that they do exist. Their tendency is just to accept things the way they are. And this, you know, like you said, not only getting up and doing things, but I'll just give you an example.

<00:35:46> Miriam Kosman: Let's say kid is having an issue in school. So an houry kind of person would tend to say, okay, well how are we gonna fix this? I call this therapist, that therapist, I spoke to this one. I got agents from that one. I spoke to the principal with a, and the the circling kind of person very often will.

<00:36:01> Miriam Kosman: probably go out of it, you know, if we just give him time and love him and accept him. Now, that may be true with some things, and it might be a terrible distortion. You know, let's say the kid doesn't know how to read and he's 10 years old, and it doesn't matter how accepting and loving he, this kid needs skills, and it's, it's, it's almost, you know, it's a terrible, terrible thing to ignore a child's needs because you just like, accepting everything and, and not, if, if getting up and doing things, if finding out about things, of making decisions and, you know, planning a course of action is hard for you.

<00:36:31> Miriam Kosman: So I think that, you know, that's a clear message that that's what you have to be working on, you know, so that's like the muster kind of approach. Of course, obviously, like I said, that is a sort of masculine kind of approach, but you know, from a more, if you wanna go into that feminist approach, you could say, you know, work with your intrinsic, uh, Intrinsic character traits.

<00:36:50> Miriam Kosman: And if you're like an arrowy kind of person, you're use your arrow maybe for, you know, to help you become more circle league. Set yourself goal set, set yourself goals, you know, and, and there's truth to that because any type of discipline, let's say meditation, if somebody really wants to learn to meditate, it's a discipline.

<00:37:06> Miriam Kosman: You have to do it every single day, whether you like it or not. You have to sit there and, you know, carve out the time. And any kind of let's say art, writing or whatever, they'll always say to you, don't wait for. Circley kind of muse to fall on you, be disciplined, set aside a time every day.

<00:37:22> Miriam Kosman: So maybe that's more of a feminine approach to sort of use your intrinsic traits to, to move forward and what, you know, I have to think about it. Maybe there'd be a more feminine way of working on yourself. I actually had a, actually had an interesting discussion with a student Y. , um, who was talk, we were talking about loving no loving Hashem.

<00:37:43> Miriam Kosman: And the student was saying, I think really you have to work first on loving yourself and the more you love yourself. I had a whole long spiel, like, which was basically expect like a very much a child of his, uh, of his, of our current generation and. What he was saying, had some, had some logic to it.

<00:38:00> Miriam Kosman: The more you love yourself, the love sort of expands and, you know, includes everybody else, you know. So maybe that would be a way of using the feminine voice to progress, um, whatever that was, that was an interesting discussion, but not, not directly related to what you're saying. So, yeah, so that, so I, I don't have any practical, specifically practical.

<00:38:21> Miriam Kosman: thing to say, how to achieve the spiral in our lives except for, you know, a lot, a lot of self-awareness and, I guess one of the most important questions a person can ask themselves, what is Ash for me right now? Mm-hmm. , you know? Mm-hmm. .

How We Approach Ourselves

<00:38:35> Kayla Levin: Mm-hmm. . I think it's critical also what you're, this conversation with the student and what you're saying about, sort of thinking about is it a masculine way of working on myself or a feminine?

<00:38:45> Kayla Levin: because what we often see, what I often see with the women that I work with is our, our default is to come down hard on ourselves in an attempt to do better. And just like we said in the very beginning with the idea of which one makes people actually do better, it's, it's not the person who's running around criticizing everyone and telling them how they should change.

<00:39:05> Kayla Levin: It's the person who's saying, I love you and I see something even better for you. You know, the more that we can incorporate that in the way that we're approaching ourselves, and like, I, I get that you made a mistake, but I also haven't given up on you and I don't think you're a bad person. And I think we could, like, maybe there's like some room for feminism, femin feminists, I don't know, what would you call it?

<00:39:23> Kayla Levin: A feminine growth oriented, you know, approach over there as well.

<00:39:27> Miriam Kosman: I totally, totally hear what you're saying, Caitlin. I think that, um, you know, by nature I'm not, you can see that this is something that I'm talking about more on a. You know, my, by nature I'm definitely more of an are we person and maybe really your podcast is working, you know, is working from that feminist perspective.

<00:39:43> Miriam Kosman: And actually that discussion I had with that student was very, very, it really brought out this issue because I, I mean, I just have to say, when you say it and when my students says it, it's very different to me because when I'm not, when people who are not from, or you know, who have not accepted the idea of hashem as.

<00:39:59> Miriam Kosman: As an authority or as a hierarchy. Talk about this idea of, expansion of self. I feel like what they need to hear is that, real love is not only, and this is very clearly connected to our idea, you just have to think about it, but like, there's the concept of love that we are one, and then there's the concept of love, that two separate beings, separateness creates a hierarchy on some level.

<00:40:23> Miriam Kosman: Just the, the fact that we're not the same creates a, because in the physical world, Two things can't be in the same place at the same time. So there is always a jockeying. That's, that's by and, and marriage is both. We are one and we're also two separate beings. So, what I was talking about with my student was the idea of recognizing an other, in other words, I feel like on a certain level, when from a seculars perspective, when someone says, loving yourself, and then eventually you reach out and love everybody else.

<00:40:55> Miriam Kosman: I feel like the secular world, one of the, the, you know, the most basic issues that come up now in, in post-modern thought is the idea of an other, like, I'm so accepting. I'm so, um, unjudgmental. I am so in unable to create any type of definition or boundary. or defining anything that I, that there is no other, the world just basically turns into me how I view the world.

<00:41:23> Miriam Kosman: That is the way the world is. There is no other, I mean the whole, now it's very deeply rooted in post modern thought. There is no other, there is no absolute, there is nothing. There's really just how I see things, you know? So that's why with him, I was talking about the idea of, um, love having, you know, if, if you, if you are, if you focus and you know, students will often say like, I don't believe that God couldn't have said such a thing, you know?

<00:41:47> Miriam Kosman: Mm-hmm. , so I always say it's very legitimate to try and question, you know, to, to turn to . I don't understand this. And we see many instances of that and Tana, where people, where major, you know, figures in that they challenge hash. . But the bottom line is an, an awareness that I am not Hashem. And Hashem has a different, there is an otherness here.

<00:42:07> Miriam Kosman: Right. So to you that's clear. That's why when you say it, I hear what you're saying and I, I agree. I, I very much hear that as a, as, as something, a tool that can be used to help us to, to grow this acceptance and love and sort of expanding the borders, instead of saying to myself, why don't you ever sit in that circle?

<00:42:25> Miriam Kosman: Why don't you dive in properly? Right. I, I totally hear that. But I think that, . Um, so that, so you know, I totally hear them and I, and I appreciate that insight that you just gave, but, um, with this particular student, I sort of was talking on a different, right. And, and I just wanna add Caleb, something interesting that I think is fa like when we discussed before about the midwives, that they did not care about status and hierarchy and the defied peril.

<00:42:50> Miriam Kosman: Right. But the pus says, and you would, it's a, it's a surprising end to the pus. The puss says, and why did they do that? Because they feared hashem. , they, they didn't save the babies cuz of compassion. They saved the babies because of hi. In other words, there was another here. And that love and like lack of status and hierarchy was directed towards the ultimate hierarchy that there was ashem here

<00:43:15> Kayla Levin: it's fascinating because, you know, the idea that, that the feminine is somehow the the end goal in many ways, and yet everything is built on the hierarchy in the first place.

<00:43:26> Kayla Levin: Right. That we start with a hierarchy. I don't know. It's, I I'm just looking forward to the next book. .

<00:43:32> Miriam Kosman: Yeah, but it's, but the t well, so that's what I'm saying, that the separateness creates a Right. That's some fact that there we are not stands face to. We stand face to face. We stand facing Hashem always is, is is a hierarchy intrinsic.

<00:43:51> Miriam Kosman: And it's the same thing really. You know, husband and wife are on, you know, they're, they're not one, they're two. So there is that separation and that's very important. . That's amazing. I feel like I, I keep schleping it back to philosophy. You keep trying to bring it down to the world. That's the whole idea.

<00:44:07> Miriam Kosman: That's the whole idea. .

Where Does Hierarchy Fit in Marriage

<00:44:10> Kayla Levin: Well that's amazing. Um, and also just all these little tangents, all, it was always the places where people respond back, oh, I just needed to hear that one piece. I, I think there's gonna be a lot of questions and people are gonna have a lot of reflection to do about, from the context of marriage, as you said, of marriage as you said, where does the hierarchy fit?

<00:44:31> Kayla Levin: Where hierarchy is? The hierarchy there? You know, has it been sort of, as you said, sort of these, like other ideas are culturally sort of superimposed on a Jewish. Concept. Right. Of, you know, people, Jewish marriages look very different based on what culture they're in, right. And what country, like home country this marriage is in.

<00:44:53> Kayla Levin: And I think, and they, they can still, they can all point to the same thing , right? And say, well, that's what, that's the That means that it goes like this. Um, so I, I think I, I don't know that I, there's anything particularly to give them, but I think there will definitely be some, some reflection happening on the part of the listeners in terms of,

<00:45:10> Kayla Levin: Where is that?

<00:45:11> Miriam Kosman: I mean, that, um, you know, there's, there's no question that there, you know, there there arm codes that talk about the hierarchical relationship between a man and a woman, and classic among them as the rambam who says that you should be like a SAR or me in your eyes. And like there's really, you know, I've heard, you know, I was gonna say, you could stand on your head and spit nickles and do whatever you want with that, but it is hierarchal, you know, like there's no, there's nothing else to do about it.

<00:45:40> Miriam Kosman: And, um, you know, what you say about modern society, it's, it's a very interesting question because one tends to ask that question from the perspective of women who sort of will say, um, I don't wanna treat 'em like a king, or, that's not an equal relationship, or, I don't want that, you know, but I often wonder about that, the random statement from the perspective of men.

<00:46:01> Miriam Kosman: In other words, let's say a woman would wanna treat her husband like a king. Would the husband necessarily love that? In other words, would modern man, you know, your typical yeshiva, bucker and mi, you know, does he wanna marry somebody who's gonna treat him like a king? Because I want you to, I wanna make a very clear, a king and a and a king and a subject is not an intimate relat.

<00:46:22> Miriam Kosman: You can, you know, again, you could stand in your head. You could, you could try and make it into it, but it isn't, it's describing not an intimate relationship. It's, it's describing, um, a king and subject and the king and subject, you know, she can, um, she can, uh, you know, accept his views, she can make him into the, um, authority, et cetera.

<00:46:45> Miriam Kosman: So there's many benefits to it, but it isn't an intimate relationship. And I think that as we're moving closer to the times of Ashia, We are, we do tend to put that intimate relationship into more of, um, it's, it's more, it's, it's the ideal for us. Now, the sources that talked about an intimate relationship, probably way, way, outweigh way, way outweigh the, um, the sources that talk about hierarchy, you know, and that's, and the, the sources that talk about, um, about.

<00:47:18> Miriam Kosman: About intimacy and mutuality and, and even equality. One could say are, you know, our sources in the Tana that are talking about the relationship between man and woman specifically. You know, like if you look at Chira Sherin, which is, you know, song of Songs, which is, you know, the classic book that's, it's, it describes a law story between a man and woman.

<00:47:39> Miriam Kosman: And it's called, it's called the holy of Holies because it, um, It's a, for a relationship with Ash, but the second she starts off and it's the woman talking and talking and she so he should kiss me with the kisses of the mouth. And it's interesting that you know, and comment, you know, commentaries mentioned that a kiss on the mouth is a mutual kiss, whereas let's say somebody kisses someone on the hand and you have the kisser and the kissy, the kiss on the mouth is mutual.

<00:48:09> Miriam Kosman: And that's the, the beginning of the, of the, of the safer, I think that the way to balance these two voices is that, even with Hashem and Katra, there obviously is a hierarchy. I mean, Torah is based on the hierarchy that Hashem commands us. Hashem commands us. That's the bottom line.

<00:48:30> Miriam Kosman: He tells us what to do and we do it. The very word, mitzvah is a commandment. Ash commanded us. The depth of a mitzvah. The Z says this, and it's a fascinating concept of the word mitzvah. The sh is sad, which is commandment, but the Z says that the word also has the word , which means together word. We know in modern Hebrew, which means sta, you know, is a staff, but it means means together.

<00:48:57> Miriam Kosman: And Theor says this, that in a certain way, by allowing for the hierarchy, in other words, which I'm gonna even say by allowing for the separate. by respecting and um, allowing for borders. That is the way that we come to safta. We be, we come to this togetherness and intimacy that, that, that's the ideal. So with men, you know, husbands and wives, maybe we can understand it on deeper level.

<00:49:24> Miriam Kosman: As far as us and hashem, we have to be very careful what we say and what we think. You know, there's no question that Hashem commands and we. But the ultimate vision I think of Judaism is that we become partners with Hashem. That were bitta with him to bring the world to, you know, to a better place. Maybe that would be helpful for this, uh, this idea of is, you know, is there an intrinsic hierarchy?

<00:49:47> Miriam Kosman: Yes, yes there is. Because there, because there has to be, cuz separateness creates a hierarchy. , why is the man higher on the hierarchy? Okay. That maybe you have to read my book for, but, uh, there, there are, you know, it could be explained, it could, it could be explained on a metaphorical level. But the bottom line is I think that what could make, uh, people more comfortable with idea in, in our society that, you know, doesn't like the idea of authority or hierarchy or whatever, is that it seems very clear from the sources that the hierarchy is a, is a means to an end.

<00:50:21> Miriam Kosman: and the end goal is that circle is that complete and total unity and love and oneness.

<00:50:28> Kayla Levin: It's such a paradox. I mean, we brought up Laura Doyle earlier, so we'll also bring up Stir Parrell. She talks about how in relationships there's this tension of we want this oneness, togetherness, and then once we get to that place, there's boredom and monotony in the relat.

<00:50:45> Kayla Levin: and that what we have to do is go counter our, our sort of intuitive desire to, to become one and, and create that separateness, because the separateness is what creates that intention, which creates the attraction and creates the ongoing. Sort of excitement in the relationship so that it doesn't just sort of all become this like, yeah, I know him, I know all about him.

<00:51:05> Kayla Levin: I know his thing. This is what he does, you know, but it's, wait, what, what else is going on over there? Maybe there's something more to, to, you know, so it's always cool to see how, you know, some of these things can show up. Um, you know, and, and as you said also just the, the idea that the. post-modern world, starting to see, I hear in the coaching world, you know, these non-Jewish coaches will start, well, the divine feminine force is now unleashed in the world.

The Feminine Force in the Modern World

<00:51:29> Kayla Levin: And I'm like, well, Miriam Kosman says . . I don't think that's what you're referring to, but maybe kind of you are, you know?

<00:51:38> Miriam Kosman: Yeah, because, uh, because the world is, you know, hash is vast. The world is vast. And, uh, there are things going on on so many different levels, and I, I, to me, that's fascinating that you.

<00:51:51> Miriam Kosman: the coaching world and the new aging world and the, you know, and the post-modernist world is like, there's no question that we're moving, you know, and that, that is an interesting thing because okay, maybe we'll just use that on, uh, you know, maybe as a final concept that the feminine world. Is lower on the hi.

<00:52:12> Miriam Kosman: If you're talking hierarchically. Hierarchically, if you're talking from an arrow perspective, there's no question. And I think anybody who tries to prove otherwise is, is ignoring a lot of sources that the feminine is lower on the hierarchy from an arrow perspective. , I'm talking about Judaism not about the Reg regular.

<00:52:31> Miriam Kosman: Like there's no question in that there is a lack of equality. It always bothers me when people say they're not, you know, women and men are equal. Just different. It's, it's just not even true. I mean, I don't even know why people say that. I mean, just look at the first perk of s where it says William Shah.

<00:52:46> Miriam Kosman: I mean, does that sound equal to anybody? I mean, that's, that's exactly what it says that he is going to, that there is gonna be an element here of lack of equality.

<00:52:59> Miriam Kosman: Why, why would that be so on a very deep level, and the world that we're in right now, the post Gunn world or the pre gunden world, whichever one you prefer, the woman, the feminine force is lower on the hierarchy because this is a world of progress. This is a world of sequel. This is a world where we have to get things done.

<00:53:18> Miriam Kosman: This is a world where the arrows very important and the um, you know, the chosenness of the Jewish people, which obviously implies a hierarchy. and the, uh, the, you know, putting Hashem's word first and denying the me experience and making space for the, you exp, you know, for Hashem. So the feminine force in this world is a little bit dangerous.

<00:53:45> Miriam Kosman: And what we could see is that in the long run what Hashem has done, you know, the, the vast picture is that Ashem gives us moments of feminine, you know, for example, There are many more men ne you know, mentioned in the Tenana than women. There are a number of, you know, fascinating, very pivotal stories about women, but there's no question, you know, the number of Nevis towards the number of Navian men, et cetera.

<00:54:10> Miriam Kosman: There's no question there isn't equality there because the feminine voice is not really this world. It's sort of like we. . We have tastes of it. Like you mentioned Chavis, I mentioned ing. You know, like all these voices and there's many others, right? The love experience, those are all like tastes of the feminine voice, but there's a hierarchy because the feminine voice is a little dangerous.

<00:54:36> Miriam Kosman: In other words, if you move into the feminine voice before we come to that ultimate, you know, time when when there's real . Then. Then it, it's, it's an incredible distortion. Like, you know, like you mentioned what you read about, you know, with these coaches or, you know, the, whatever. The idea of total and complete acceptance of everything with no, um, with no ability to discern or to criticize is very, v,ery dangerous in this world.

<00:55:07> Miriam Kosman: And you know, like I said before, I feel. , we can see this all over the place like that. The world is, the western world is moving towards this feminine voice more and more in a very distorted way. So, um, I think that's why, you know, on a deep level, that's why there is an intrinsic hierarchy. At the same time, there's a message that if you can do it right, the ultimate goal is, uh, is, is complete and total, you know, mutuality and I guess you could say equality on some.

<00:55:44> Kayla Levin: Thank you so much. This was amazing. I also just wanna say that for anyone this, I think we are only scratching the surface here. There is so, so much more inside of your book. And so if anyone has still not got their copy and read it, I personally.

<00:55:57> Kayla Levin: Adding one more recommendation that people check it out and, and give it a, give it a read. Um, because I think that there's, you know, it is philosophy, but for me personally, I think it really, um, it really did show up in my life in a very practical way. So thank you so much for coming on and, and sharing your time with us.

<00:56:14> Kayla Levin: Your time with us.

<00:56:15> Miriam Kosman: Okay. It was a pleasure. Thank you. I guess, uh, we could wish everybody to find a way to live a spiral in their. Right. . Yeah. Amin. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

<00:56:28> Kayla Levin: Thank you so much. Be well.

<00:56:32>

<00:56:35> Kayla Levin:

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